2V or not 4v , that is the question?

I am delaying the rebuild on my 69 2V 351w,
when i do i will have to make the decision as to keeping it the original 2v , or upgrading to a 4v engine.
I already have a factory 69 4V manifold, and a strange alloy manifold of the same vintage( needs a bit of work tho) that appears to be a ford piece ?
I also have an early “ Buddy Bar” intake that Shelbys apparently could option up to ?
My goal is to max torques, not horsepower, and absolutely drivability !
Regardless i will putting in some actual KB flat tops that only have two valve reliefs.
And a mild torque cam and some mild head work.
I probably will keep the factory ion exhaust manifolds. Compression will be upwards of the 10:1 factory rating.
So if i go 4v , do i go for the generic 600 Holley, or the original Autolite/motorcraft style carb.
I don’t understand the Edelbrock carbs so don’t lean towards them.
These factory carbs are not known for being user friendly to tune, but for those who do understand them say they are way underestimated.
I would lean towards the factory 4v carb, as simplicity of installation of a factory set up.
Would the 4v effect economy/drivability etc ?
This will almost never see north of 5000rpm.

Sooo…2v or 4v , that is the question.

If I were in your shoes, I’d go with the 4 barrel. And even though I favor Holley carbs myself, I suspect you’d be happier with an Edelbrock. Even though you say you don’t understand them, you don’t really have to, as they’re basically set it and forget it carbs. Holleys are great if you want to tweak and tune and optimize your set up, but it doesn’t sound to me like that’s what you’re going for. But the basic 600 Holley is a fine carb, so you really can’t go wrong if you decide to go that route. I’d avoid the OEM Autolite 4300. They’re a pain. The older Autolite 4100 4Vs are great carbs, but Ford never used one on a 351W.

Use a 4 barrel setup, something with small primary’s. Small primaries improve drivability and fuel economy. Edelbrock"s are excellent and have shown better atomisation than the holley (think power and economy) but I think they may have problems with E10? Holley’s are more generic and have a bigger selection and getting the correct cfm size is important to a car with torque and fuel economy. It is more important to get the tune right, than the carburettor brand. 500 cfm is what you need, 600 cfm is close enough. Don’t use a double pump carb! The only reasons a 4 barrel carb will not get good economy is a bad tune or a heavy foot.

The Shelby 351 Windsor was rated at 290hp @ 4800 rpm, so if you have the Shelby manifold and want to use it, it will be fine, but suggest using larger carb like 600 cfm.

If you can, avoid flat top pistons, but defiantly go with only the two eyebrow cut outs for the inlet and exhaust valves in the piston. Make the cut outs the absolute minimum depth. Too deep and your engine will start to loss power and economy in the lean mode. Radius the eyebrows so the flame can get into the depth of the cavity.

You need a dished piston for the type of engine you are chasing, any form of dished piston is better than a flat top. The deeper the dish is in the centre, the better, the higher the outer rim of the piston is the better. A lot easier said than done when trying to build a 10 :1 compression ratio. Don’t use a pop up piston! I don’t know how good your expertise is here, but if you can do it, the gains will far exceed any of the previous modifications you intend doing.

The way I was contemplating doing it was using a small chamber head off say a 289, which will increase compression ratio above the tolerance the octane rating of the fuel and then lowering the compression ratio back down to 10:1 with the dished piston. This would result in a cleaner burn, more power, improve economy and less emissions if tuned right.

Problem is that 351 Windsor’s have a 1/2 inch head bolt and the 289 has a 7/16 head bolt. Now if it was possible to dill out the 289 head bolt holes to 1/2 in, then port the heads to suit the power out put required, problem solved. I was able to get 400hp out of 1967 289 heads back in the 80’s so this possible. Don’t know about drilling out the head bolt holes, never done it, was going to try it one day.

Getting back to the head work, go the extra and use bronze valve guides with chrome valve stems. This results in better heat transfer from the valves to the cylinder head improving combustion chamber surface temperatures at the valve head. Use a stainless valve on the Exhaust only this will even out the difference in temperature between the exhaust side and the inlet side of the combustion chamber.

Hopefully this make sense to some here and is a little helpful. :slight_smile:

I would go with a 750 Holley 0-3310 carburetor. A 600 CFM carb is a bit small for a 351. Rule of thumb is 2X cubic inches = approximate CFM needed. The engine will only use the CFM it needs if you use a vacuum secondary carburetor like the 0-3310. You will love the way the car drives. Mileage will not be as good because the engine will be making more torque and horsepower which will lead you to planting your foot more frequently on the loud pedal. Mileage would be about the same if you drove the car the same.

The C9OX aluminum manifold was an over the counter part sold by Ford back in the day. Good intake.

Edelbrock carburetors are simply a copy of an old Carter design used on Mopar and Chevrolet products in the late 1950’s - 1960’s. The position of the fuel line and linkage are all wrong for Ford products which alone is a big problem if you have any intention of using stock linkage and air cleaners and fuel lines.



To address your questions simply: A 4V carb will deliver better performance, driveability, and potentially better economy - if you can keep your foot out of it! For street use, vacuum secondaries are the best choice. They will deliver more air and fuel, but only when your engine asks for it - not just when you jiggle the skinny pedal. Mechanical secondaries work best with manual transmissions and do poorly in stop-and-go traffic, delivering rotten mileage, stumbles, hesitation, and general fuss for part-throttle operation.

Holleys can make good top end, but they don’t offer annular boosters except on their high-end carbs. Annulars are absolutely superior for street use, delivering better fuel atomization, and increased signal sensitivity. That means increased throttle response, more average power (not just top-end), and better economy, since you won’t be spitting as much unburnt fuel out the tailpipe.

The old Autolite 4100s are one of the very best 4v carbs, but their flow tops out around 500 cfm or so, and even with the modest RPMs you’re describing, a healthy 351 could potentially run out of air. They are also hard to tune, since parts for them are both scarce and because they were never intended to be modified.

Instead, for your engine, I think I would go with the Summit M-series 600CFM carb. It’s a direct descendant of the old 4100, and has a lot of similarities, but it is much easier to tune, and uses standard Holley jets and parts. It has vacuum secondaries, and annual boosters too. With a price tag of just over $300, it’s mighty hard to beat. (for those of you ‘in the know’, yes it’s based on the ill-fated Holley 4110. But the 4110 was based on the Autolite 4100. So yes, they are closely related.) If you were going to do any mods with your engine, and possibly want to hop it up later, as Royce said, 750 is usually not too much for a 351, but the smaller primaries of the 600 will offer slightly better throttle response and economy.

If you wanted a cheap dragstrip terror with mediocre manners, a Craigslist or Ebay Holley would be fine. They are common as grains of sand on a beach, and at wide-open-throttle, properly tuned, they can probably even beat the Summit carb by about 5-10 horsepower. The larger fuel droplet size produced by the Holleys takes less room in the intake, allowing more oxygen and fuel into the chamber. Annular boosters typically deliver almost pure vapor instead of droplets at WOT on the top end, and that displaces some of the air. But for a car you intend to drive on the street, the M-series would be way better, delivering a few more MPG and better overall power.

And Yearby, dished pistons decrease compression (which theoretically lowers the need for high-octane gas), but they also reduce power output significantly for the same reason. Worse, a dished piston prevents your combustion chamber’s quench area from working properly, which actually increases octane sensitivity. You are much better off with a properly sized combustion chamber, running flat-tops (with valve reliefs if you need 'em!) for better flame propagation and improved quench. On some engines, like the open-chamber Clevelands, there’s not an effective quench area anyway, so you’re kind of hosed no matter what you do. Invest in octane booster, I guess.

I would defiantly put in the KB flat tops.
Its an other wise dead stock engine, but as a 2v its got dished pistons giving it a low 9:5 compression.
As torque coms from compression presures, it needs to be up at 10:1 or even a tad more.
I have previously built a 351w with this combination, but it had a Holley 450cfm and try -y headers, and it was a Torque monster.,!
however that was using DooE heads with 1.6-1.9 valves, i am expecting the original 69 heads to be on it still so chambers will be 60cc so
with flat tops it will give me my compresion.
What are these Summit carbs someone mentioned ?

Or i could throw cation to the wind and build a 393-408w …lol


o my god, i promised my self i wasn’t going to go this far with this car…sigh…

I thought you wanted a mild 351 with rev kept under 5000 and good drivability?

Did you want power or fuel economy and drivability?

Torque !

Maybe the stoker option is not such a bad idea, but keep the stoke less than the bore size and still use a dished piston for the best drivability. Don’t lower the compression ratio when using the dished piston, you will still need to keep it high.

What is the intended application, is it a daily driver, or a trailer queen, or are you going to drive it coast to coast between car events? Is it going to be a standard looking sleeper or a bling queen?

Its going to be a driver that i can just get in and go somewhere with out fighting with it.
smooth and quiet, idle sweetly at the lights, and not pass every thing but a petrol pump.
I dont care what the HP number is, just max torque as low rpm as practicable .

Having been a beginning driver in 1969 and avid reader of all the Ford Muscle Parts literature, if it was mine, I’d build a stock bore and stroke 351, use the Ford cast iron intake and sell the vintage aluminum one to raise $$ (someone will likely pay good money), and use a Holley 80457, a 1850-like vacuum secondary carb that has the fuel inlet on the Ford side. I got mine for the weeny '68 302 via the Holley “refurb” returns program, which made it under $250. It had nary a scuff on it and has been a reliable soldier. On your 351 the throttle response should be breathtaking, and I already had the tuning parts on the shelf.

I keep meaning to overhaul my 4300 to run in a regional stock-appearing drag class. You can make fine power and driveability with them; I ran the stock one on my old '71 Cyclone with 351C. They share primary jets with the 4100, by the way.

Fast and torque are relative terms… a V6 Camry will blow the doors off just about any Cougar these days. The stock 2V is such an excellent running carb for cruising. It gets decent (for a 351) mileage although just about anything you can buy will also blow that away. It has great throttle response. It almost never needs any tuning and it is just so simple and uncomplicated. If you ever have to replace anything there is no drama in getting the right part, the linkage works right, the fuel lines fit right, the PCV works right. They don’t leak, they worked well enough that 50 years later there are thousands still doing their job. Yes, I get it: why not add a little sumpthin’ sumpthin’… I do it all the time myself. But the more I mess with these old cars the more I appreciate the virtue of simplicity.

Not exactly on topic but sort of… Back in the mid ‘70’s, when I was freshman in college I had a friend that was kind of a skinny little nerdy guy: maybe 5’ 7" and 100 pounds. He drove a robin’s egg blue Triumph spitfire. It had these tiny little 13" wheels on it with little dog dish hubcaps and skinny tires. A little girl on a bicycle could blow his doors off in the stop light drags. We were all driving Mustangs and Camaros and Roadrunners, all jacked up in the back with N50 tires sticking out of the wheel wells. We could barely afford the gas so for the most part they sat parked. When we did drive them it often led to a ticket called “exhibition of speed”… But I digress. Suffice it say that we teased my little buddy about the baby blue Triumph to no end, constantly telling him how the only way he could keep up was if we tied it to our bumper.

However, there was one thing that his car had that none of us seemed to comprehend. He always seemed to have a really hot looking girl in the passenger seat. He had figured something out. You can’t pick up girls while doing a burn out. He was “seeing” a very sophisticated older girl, I mean she must have been at least 21, probably a senior… Any way I asked what she saw in him. She said the difference between men and boys was that boys always tired to impress a girl with how fast their car was, but men slowed down to take a look and say hello. My friend had learned that an un-intimidating little blue sports car, with a wicker picnic basket on the luggage rack, and a bottle of white wine inside, was better than a blown Hemi for some things. We wanted what he was having…

I have been married now for over 40 years so chasing chicks is so far in the rear view mirror that I can’t even remember how that works… But as it turns out you can’t smell the roses unless you slow down. There are times that going fast is a lot of fun, but there are also times when you just want to enjoy the ride. So many times the best part of having a classic Cougar is when it isn’t even moving. It is the people you meet and the way it changes every experience you have while driving it.

xr7g428, that was a heartwarming, well-written, sniffle inspiring story. Well done.

Now back to the burnouts. grin

For a street car, high average power is king. Vac secondaries carb of reasonable size with annular boosters, mild cam with around 112 lobe separation (for broad torque production), a good dual-plane intake. Spend the rest on your heads. Your '69 heads are not as good as the E7TE’s in stock form, but if you got someone good to port them, they could be almost as good as GT40P heads, and deliver blistering torque production from idle to redline. Keep your valve and port sizes modest to help keep velocity up. You’re trying to improve efficiency, not just move your RPM band higher to make more horsepower. And use manifold vacuum on your properly recurved distributor! Tuning your ignition makes a tremendous difference.

The girls he was dating inspired more than sniffles. They are all grandmas now LOL!

And burns outs are fun in their own right. Of course there is nothing like a 427 or 428 to turn me back into that 18 year old.

The girls he was dating inspired more than sniffles” TMI Bill, check please! LOL

re xr7428
Your first paragraph is exactly were my head is,
Simplicity is on the top of the list, i can have a power thrill with something else in my shed.
Im thinking if i go 4v then a 450-500 cfm would be the go to carb for this combo.

But wait !!

What if i was to mention the word…Holley Sniper ?

The Sniper’s a great setup! But it’s expensive, and your gains compared to a properly set up carburetor will be small. You’d have to drive an awful lot of miles before you’d pay off the 1-2 mpg you’d gain. And Blue, a 500 is a little too small for your 351, much less a 450. You just want something that matches your engine’s air needs, and that includes not being completely bogged on the top end due to lack of air. Even if you want to be conservative, your engine can use 600 CFM. Your 351 is not a 289. You get no benefit from having a carb that’s genuinely too small, and doing so creates other problems.

Because a ‘too small’ carburetor tends to atomize better than a ‘too large’ carburetor, it tends to cover up some deficiencies when a carb’s not tuned right. Your best bet, though, is to use a good carb that IS tuned right, and is sized right for your engine. You get all the throttle response, all the power, and none of the shortcomings.

Thisis the carb I was mentioning:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08600vs/overview/
It’s essentially an updated version of your old Autolite 2100, but with 4 venturii, and it uses easy-to-find Holley jets and stuff even if you do tinker with it. Super simple, ultra-reliable, and does a fantastic job. It even comes with a nifty DVD to show you how to properly tune it.

(and I’m still laughing, Bill) I’m convinced that these beautiful old tin cats keep me young. Possibly the reason I’m single, too. grin

The summit version of a Holley does have annular boosters.

Having said that, I’d just do the Edelbrock and be happy. The fuel inlets can be switched to either side.

90 degree banjo fittings exist but don’t come in the box. I haven’t used them myself but they are even more versatile.

Still, 3 inches of fuel hose combined with either a 45 degree or 90 degree fitting can solve most problems.

A fuel pressure regulator might or might not be needed.

The Edelbrocks have springs and needle valves like a motorcycle. You can replace most parts (rarely needed) with the carb on the car.

The only real drawback is that you might drop things into the engine if you’re not careful.

Using the old school formula 2cfm per cubic inch +/- 50 either way tends to indicate that a 351 should have a 750 cfm unit.

Still, even getting only a 500cfm or 600cfm will be a huge upgrade & feel like almost a new engine.