Brake Diagnosis

I’m getting to the end of my rope here with my brakes, not sure where to check next for the problem. 1970 Cougar, Power Disc Front and Drum Rear.

I’ve got a new power booster that’s correct for my year, new master cylinder, new lines going to the distribution/warning block, the front has new rubber lines going to 67 or 68 calipers and rotors, and the rear has new everything. The only old parts are the hardlines and the distribution block. I went through another master cylinder and assumed it was the problem since I was ending up with low fluid in one reservoir and high in the other so I thought it was leaking between them.

I bench bled the master, reinstalled, and with plugs in both holes it felt very firm, couldn’t even get the pedal down an inch. I hooked it up to the lines, and then I hooked up my pressure tank bleeder and got it pumped up to 15psi and it held for at least half an hour before I started to get to work on it. I bled all the wheels, starting from the furthest and making my way closer to the master cylinder, I got no bubbles from any of them, since it had been bled before. With the pressure tank still on and still at 15psi, I was able to turn the front wheels by hand without much effort. I disconnected the bleeder and took it around the block and it has no brakes for 90% of the pedal travel, then the last 10% it gets enough to slow it down a bit from about 30mph.

When I installed the master cylinder I adjusted the pushrod further out than where it should be, and then put the master on and off and adjusted the rod until the rod didn’t push the piston in the cylinder when the master cylinder was tightened to the booster. Is that a fine way to do it, or do I need to adjust it so that it slightly pushes the piston in?

I bled it again today, I ran a half quart of fluid through each wheel, over a few minutes with the pressure bleeder. I got maybe 5 or so bubbles from the rear passenger wheel cylinder, but nothing at the other wheels. Master cylinder was level, the system held pressure, and I got through the 2 quarts of fluid completely fine. Still nothing. I have messed with the adjustable block that changes pressure to the rear brakes, and completely tight or loose and anywhere inbetween hasn’t had much difference.

So I’ve got a system that can run fluid through all the lines, no leaks or blockages, and it holds pressure indefinitely. I’ve bled 2-3 quarts of fluid through it over the past few days, no bubbles. The master cylinder was very firm when it had the plugs in it, so it wasn’t leaking through anywhere.

The only hint of a problem I had was when I pumped the brake pedal a few times with one rear bleeder open, it hardly moved any fluid, however I thought that was because I had a messed up master cylinder, which has since been replaced. I haven’t gotten a chance to check again, but I assume the same is true of this new master cylinder.

Any advice as to what could be busted? The only things left that I could think would be the distribution block or adjusting the rod out further, but I thought that not letting the piston fully decompress was bad and would cause your brakes to stick, and I’m not sure how the distribution block would cause this problem unless it was leaking. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

Push rod is too short. Set to factory spec

1967 and 1968 disc brake calipers are totally different. Which do you have? 1967 is four piston. 1968 - 73 is single piston. It’s common for people to install the 1968 - 73 calipers incorrectly so there is always trapped air that can’t be bled out. The bleeder valves should point to the rear of the car if they are installed properly.

The rear brake system is drum brakes. The shoes need to be properly adjusted or there will be no brakes. There should be a slight rubbing of all shoes after a fresh brake job. If there is no rubbing with all parts installed and the wheels torqued then you need to adjust them until they do.

They’re the 67 then, previous owner swapped them and hadn’t mentioned. With the way my caliper is I don’t think I’d be able to face it rearward, it faces upward, if looking head on somewhere between 12 and 1 o’clock.

I do have a slight rubbing in the drums, adjusted till there was just a slight drag when turning by hand.

I hope it is just the rod, I had a previous experience with another car where having the rod compress the piston at all when installing would slowly cause pressure to build when braking, but I’ll try to extend the rod and see what happens. I don’t have a service manual for the cougar, is there a chance anybody knows the stock measurement off the top of their head?

Seems like there is some missing info & pics. Royce is right, adjust rod correctly & we need to know which calipers you have… A pic tells us.

You don’t say if the valve was rebuilt?
The rear rubber hose replaced?

A mix of years parts can be a real battle in getting things to work together.

The 1967 version is a handy way to convert 1969 - 70 drum brake cars because then you can use the drum brake spindles. The '67 caliper is distinctive with its cross over line and four pistons.

This is the right front caliper. The LH side is opposite.




Did you tear the warning/dist block apart and check/clean it? Try clamping all the brake hoses to cut off flow and see anything changes.

I am just thinking outside the box here but if the car was originally a manual drum brake car (didn’t change the drum spindles because it now has 67 disc calipers installed) could the brake pedal be mounted in the drum pedal location on the under dash support and causing leverage issues?
Mike

They are for sure the 67, mine are on the front of the rotor with the bleeder facing upward.

How should I adjust the rod? I’ve got it so it fits in without compressing the piston in the master cylinder, if I go any longer I assume it would give me more braking sooner in the pedal but is there a risk of building pressure and locking brakes by not letting the piston fully decompress?

The valve hasn’t been touched, it worked 3 years ago when I got the car, and it doesn’t leak now and the warning light does work. If it were broken but not leaking could it still cause weak brakes?

I’ll look into disassembling the block in case adjusting the rod doesn’t help, I’ve heard they are hard to deal with and fined replacements for, would I be better off getting a newer adjustable block from ssbc?

I’m not sure if the brake pedal has been moved or not, I’ll have to look on here to find a method to check. Currently the pedal sits slightly higher than the gas pedal, and it does have a good amount of travel to it, just guessing off the top of my head but at least 6 inches of travel.

I am showing .980 to .995 so a hair under an inch.

If it extends too far out, then the piston can’t return enough to let the fluid reenter the reservoir. Too far in then you never move enough volume of fluid to generate enough pressure.

Tiny adjustments are enough to make a difference. Could you measure it and see what you have now?

Measuring from the mounting surface of the master cylinder correct? I haven’t adjusted it yet and it looks to be 1", perhaps a tad over.

Does that booster use the plastic spacer with the filter in it? Which booster is that? Midland Ross or Bendix?

Chased this problem a few years back…pedal went too far to the floor…but was fine when the engine off…finally found a 2006 post on the Boss forum about a missing reaction disc that goes between the rod and the booster end of the rod…I adjusted the rod…no change…but when I read about the missing reaction disc and that more than likely it had come loose if the rod was removed and was probably still inside the front part of the booster…anyway took booster off and shook it…sure enough…there was a part rattling around inside…a rubber disc…I glued it to the booster end of the rod and problem gone… I ended up sending the OP on the boss forum a message about how his 5-6 old post had made my day…just a thought

My booster I had before did, I sent that one to WCCC and they sent me this one. I can’t remember if they sent the spacer back with this one or not, but I haven’t had the spacer on this one since I’ve used it. Its the bendix, the person I talked to recommended me that one, although it does say it’s the one for 67-69, not sure how different they are. I remember them going over the teardrop and straight rod into the booster.

If the rubber disc you are talking about sits in side the bore of the booster and the rod slides through it, I’ve got that in there, came with the booster when WCCC sent it to me.

Spacer from a 67.


Stoke front disc brakes also have a proportioning valve connected to the switch block. Mine was leaking so I rebuilt it as a part of my brake job. Besides leaking, I’m not sure what symptoms a bad proportioning valve would cause. Do you have one?
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For the 1970 and up the proportioning valve is built in to the distribution block.

But checking it’s performance is a very good idea.

I don’t have that proportioning valve but I believe I have the 70 distribution block so it should be inside there. I also have a separate adjustable proportioning valve after the dist block, which I’ve tried at many different positions and not had any luck with tightening up the brakes.

Edit: After looking at the dist block on WCCC I might not have that one either, or if I do I may have found my issue, if thats the case my lines are hooked up incorrectly. I hooked it up the same as it was when I got the car, and they worked then, but I’ll have to check.

Just checked and I have the 67 distribution block, hence the aftermarket adjustable proportioning valve for the rear brakes.

The disc I’m referring to is solid…maybe 7/8 inch in diameter…perhaps 1/4 inch thick…goes on the end of the pushrod as it seats in the booster…the outer seal with hole in it maintains the vacuum on the forward chamber of the booster.