Distributor doesn't want to go back in

Cougar Community Classic Cougar Maintenance Restoration and Repair
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I’ve read about people having difficulty getting their distributors out. No problem whatsoever, came out rather easily. My problem is that it doesn’t seem to want to go back in.

I’m putting it in exactly the same position it was in, I noted the orientation of the rotor and am inserting it so after it rotates slightly as the gears interlock, it ends up right where it was. I’ve got the distributor’s body oriented exactly as it was when I pulled it out. But it only wants to go in so far as to get the gears interlocked, and not far enough so the gasket at the top is actually inside the block, it’s stopping right there.

Is it normal to have to use a lot of force to push it back in? I haven’t tried pushing terribly hard, maybe a little bit of force but not really pushing it down super hard. Do I need to? I would’ve thought it would slip nicely into place.

Pics of all electrical contacts to follow.

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The oil pump drive shaft is probably not lined up with the dist. You may need to turn the crank while putting a little pressure on the dist to seat it in place

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Pics

Points:

Rotor:

Cap:

Distributor not wanting to easily go in farther than this:




To my noob eye, there appears to be bad signs of arcing on the rotor, and four of the 8 contacts in the cap look dirty (that’s not just an artifact of lighting in the pic, that’s exactly what they look like), and the points I’m not really sure if that looks good or bad. Doesn’t look spotless, that’s for sure.

I might have to call it a night, as it’s cold as hell and my fingers are starting to want to be inside gloves, but if there’s a way I can get the distributor all the way back in before I leave I’d really prefer it. I doubt a ton of dirt is gonna get in there as it is, but I’d rather be confident that zero dirt can get it.

As always, help is greatly appreciated! Thanks guys.

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Ah, dmac you posted while I was writing that last post. I’ll give it a shot. Thanks!

5

Do not force it!

I would not move the crank, but you can do it that way. The drive for the oil pump is not lining up wit the recess in the bottom of the distributor. The drive shaft may have fallen to on side so you may need to center it in the opening. It might also need to be slightly rotated to line up with the bottom of the distributor. You can rotate it by putting a small socket, the same size as the recess (5/16"?) on the end of a long extension. I tape the socket on just to be certain that it doesn’t drop off inside there.

Maybe the question we should be asking is why did you pull it?

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Man what a noob. The bolt on the crankshaft is bigger than the biggest socket I have, it seems. What is it, 7/8" or larger? Biggest socket I have is 13/16" and it doesn’t seem to be big enough. Am I hosed? Time for a trip to the hardware store for a tool that as a grown man I should already own. So embarrassing.

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Bill you posted while I was posting. Embarrassment abounds.

I pulled it to get easy photos of the electrical contacts without removing the points, which would then need to be regapped which I’m not set up to do right now. I realize that putting the distributor back in with the housing rotated at all is going to mess up my perfectly set timing, but because of the moderate gunk on it I can get it back in exactly where it was because it’s clean under the spot where the bracket locks it in place. And I noted the orientation of the rotor, so I figured it would be exactly as it was before I got into all this.

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Makes sense. I thought that may be you were chasing other demons ans this was just one part of a bigger project. I like taking stuff apart, that is how I learned how to put it back together: degree from MIT… Mistakes I Tried. Timing is not an exact thing, so you can move it back and forth with no issues. On stock engines I tend to advance the timing till I get a little bit of ping under full throttle acceleration, then back it off a little bit.

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I’m such a noob I still don’t know exactly what ping sounds like.

And you’re right, in addition to just checking the contacts out as a matter of course, this was actually part of trying to track down a bigger problem. And the problem is…

After filling her up with 93 octane yesterday, and then on the highway on the way home seeing if she doesn’t mind going over the speed limit (got up to 85 according to the iPhone speedometer app, around 4k rpm on the tach) then when I was on the surface roads on the way home I heard what sounded like ticking when I was sitting at stop lights at idle. I couldn’t hear it well, except reflected back at me off cars in the other lane or the side of buildings.

So I thought maybe this was ping, which I’ve heard of but don’t exactly know the sound of. YouTube searches didn’t do anything to help really. So I headed over to the garage tonight to fire her up and get a good listen, and then potentially drive over to the CarQuest to pick up some octane boost on the off chance that the gas station somehow got their low octane and high octane fuels mixed up.

Anyway, I got to the garage, fired her up, and though she’d crank fine, no signs of firing. Then I remembered that I’m an idiot, and since there is now a second car in the garage I rent, and they had left the door wide open during the day (facepalm), I did the cheap safety precaution of removing the wire from the coil to the distributor so nobody could steal it without bringing their own wire. Stupid me forgot to replace it before I fired her up.

So I replaced the wire and fired her up, and here’s what I was getting… Turning over and firing and starting up, but as soon as I’d return the key to the on position, total shutdown. I’m 90-something percent sure the reason behind that is the starter solenoid needs replaced, since after numerous attempts at starting I went ahead and tried the “hit the solenoid lightly with a hammer to un-stick it” trick which then resulted in the car finally running with the key in the on position but running very, very weak. And when I removed the solenoid to bring it home to test it out, I found that the “I” terminal on it was totally loose and could be pushed inside the housing if I let it fall in there. So, 90-something percent sure that thing needs replaced. I’m gonna do it Friday hopefully.

On the off chance that I put the distributor back in with the rotor rotated one position (which I highly doubt but have to consider) would that result in the engine running really weak, or not running at all? Or is it probably the solenoid not working properly?

From the pics, what needs done there? New rotor? New cap, or try and clean up the four dirty contacts on the existing one?

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tmh, sounds like you need a solenoid. The distributor looks like it will seat if you can get someone to bump the key while you hold pressure down on the distributor. If you have not advanced the distributor a tooth, your car should start up. If the car was running fine before you pulled the distributor, it should run after you put it in. Sounds like the slight tapping that you heard may be a lifter tapping because you ran at high speeds for a while. If your motor is original, I would not worry about it, it could run another 40 years with this slight tap. Sal

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Wish I could figure out how to describe pingng to you. It sounds like, well, pinging. You’ll only hear it under load and it definitely is not the sound a noisy lifter makes.

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Points are very easy to replace and set once you get the distributor back in. Rotor goes on only one way. Should lift right off unless it stuck a little which sometimes can happen. Then a slight pry with something normally gets it loose. Cap does not look all that bad, rotor while a little used not bad either. Points do look a little worn. Try to find good replacement points. The basic parts store stuff is ok but point alignment needs to be checked. New ones can be bent a little sometimes. Don’t forget a little cam lube grease on the distributor block (hexagon shaped wheel points open/close on. I get a small tube from Mallory that’s a non conductive grease for distributor cams. I love point distributors. Very simple and easy.

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So I’ve had a couple people tell me that for the issue of it not wanting to stay running, that doesn’t sound like its the starter solenoid, and then after I tapped it with a hammer and it ran but weak/rough, that doesn’t sound like anything to do with the solenoid at all. It was suggested that the real reason it was running rough may have been because the carb was flooded from all the time cranking but never properly running, but it seems to me that if that was the issue, wouldn’t all that fuel get burned out in the first second or two once I did get it to stay running? Or is that more like a 5 or 10 or 30 second thing? With it running as messed up as it was, I only let it go for a couple seconds before I shut it down, figuring that it might be messing it up to let it run like that.

My brother in law also seemed pretty confident the issue of it not wanting to stay running is a problem with the ignition switch itself, not the solenoid. I’m gonna look over the wiring diagrams today and tomorrow and see if I can understand the starting/ignition system a bit better, but in the meantime, thoughts?

Does the whole thing of it not wanting to stay running, but then running but roughly after I tapped the starter solenoid with a hammer, does that seem like just a coincidence?

The tapping thing is now on the backburner, just getting her up and running is goal #1. Well, replacing the coolant before it gets too cold is #1, but getting her running is a part of doing that job right anyway. New rotor is cheap, new points I’d just as soon skip and go straight on to the Pertronix Ignitor (I’m thinking II probably), new solenoid is cheap and easy so I’m going to do it unless there’s a compelling reason not to…

And again, just to make sure this isn’t just me being an idiot and getting the distributor back in place one tooth off, which I don’t think I did but now it seems like it might explain the weak/rough running, if I did get the distributor back in place one tooth off from where it was when I took it out, shifting the firing order, would that make it run very weak/rough, or would that make it not run at all?

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@FFR428 considering how cheap a new rotor is (less than a sandwich), does mine look good enough that it’s not worth getting a new one just to start fresh?

And about my cap, those four dirty contacts, is it worthwhile to go at them with something like electrical contact cleaner? Or use the oldschool penciltip eraser trick? Or just leave it be?

At this point I really also need to be pulling a plug (or plugs) to check the gap and look at their coloration and all that. I haven’t even looked at the plugs, or any plugs before for that matter other than checking a gap on a plug one time in auto shop, and have no idea if they’re old or new or what. Bill previously pointed out that it’s a diagnostic check that is really upstream from what I’m already looking at, and I know it needs doing and am eager to do it. So maybe that needs to be bumped up to the top of the list for things to do tomorrow. Supposed to be 60 degrees. If the auto parts places are open, tomorrow is gonna be a good one.

Oh and Al! One of the YouTube videos I checked out when trying to recognize pinging, the guy bonks a piston with a metal hammer. Is that close to how it sounds? When I think of ping, I think of the sound of a hit from an aluminum baseball bat or a titanium driver (golf club). Is that the right ballpark? How loud and pronounced is it? Buried under the normal engine tones, or does it stand out?

If the tapping is a valve related thing and it’s not particularly destructive to the engine, I’m okay with it for now. Getting under the valve covers is something I expect to get to maybe springtime but maybe not till summer.

Too many things I’m looking forward to. Springtime and/or my own heated garage can’t get here soon enough.

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A little bit of stuff on the electrodes inside the cap is fine. If you have a buildup and can’t get a new one right away, then chip off the built up junk that is on the electrodes and that should get you some time to get the cape. If you change out a cap, change out the rotor as well, good practice. As for a previous post about the points, the gap from what i can remember is .016 or the thickness of the lit on a pack of matches. It would be best to get the Pertronix Ignitor II and you will not have any more problems with that.
If you are hearing ticking while the car is just sitting idling, that is not spark knock, that is just your lifters needing an adjustment, but don’t be too concerned with that right know. Spark knock is only heard with you are accelerating and sounds like some maracas rattling in side your motor.
If your car is running with the distributor back in without backfiring, you probably need to advance the timing. Get a timing light and set it to 10 degrees BTDC (Before top dead center)

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Rotor looks fine as is. Since your changing to pertronix save the money. Cap should be fine as well just inspect for hair line cracks. Point gap is .017 and matchbook covers today are like .010-.012 thickness so not so good as a feeler gauge. I think the noise your hearing is valve train or lifters not so much detonation aka pinging. Pinging will sounds like a old typerwriter under load/acceleration. Bad juju.

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Points gap is more like 0.19 or 0.20. That’s not so far off that it would cause weak running, right?

Time to bust out the multimeter and shop manual.

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Manual says .017, for what it’s worth.

Checked the coil resistances. Neither coil is shorted or open, but neither one is within spec and they’re in opposite directions. Primary is too high, at 1.7 ohms when it should be 1.40-1.54, and the secondary is too low at 6.7k when it should be 7.6-8.8k.

Having tried to start it without the main high voltage wire between the coil and distributor is what started all this, so it seems reasonable that the coil would have been messed up from being operated with no load on the secondary. But I wouldn’t have suspected it to just be this small amount of resistance drift on both coils.

I’m about to trace the voltage from the battery to the coil primary with the key in the run and start positions, but while I do that if anyone has any input on the coil being out of spec, I’d love to hear it.

Man has this thread gotten way off topic relative to the title. Sorry about that.

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I should have noticed this sooner but the electronic choke was connected directly to the battery + terminal (well, where the battery connects to the starter solenoid) which from what I’ve read is bad news. Hook it up via a relay that switches following the ignition being in the on position, right? Or to the stator terminal on the alternator? But not to the starter solenoid?

If mines’s been hooked up directly to the battery since before I bought the car (so at least a month and a half) its probably shot, right? Surprised I haven’t had battery problems. Is there a straightforward way to test the choke to see if it even still works? Would a dead electronic choke lead to the problems I’m having?

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With the engine cold, the choke plate should close when you press down the accelerator pedal. It should slowly open as the engine warms up, but it sounds like its not running long enough to do that right now.

If you think your distributor is off, you can loosen the hold down bolt before starting it, then turn it slightly either way with the engine running to see if the idle improves.