Hi, I saw it over there in the corner. now i had read that once that warning light is on, even if all is ok that you must do a bleed to reset or turn it off. i can’t recall ever having that before, but i haven’t gone back past a '79 car, let alone into 1960s models again for a few decades ('60s Pontiacs & Chevy). this cat is #24, yet is my very 1st FoMoCo product. On my GM cars, if there was no air in system or bleed required as is the case here, often repeat push on the pedal would reset the valve/sensor in there and turn the light off. all checks out good with the brake system including master topped off, no leaks, recent pads, shoes, new hoses & great braking performance. so on turning that light off, is this true on these cars?
I don’t understand why you are so concerned with vacuum advance. What are you try to accomplish?
Ive tried to follow the root concerns here but there seems to be lots of chasing squirrels around the car
Might be time to start over and rethink things. I recommend starting at the basics, xr7g428 gave a good example up above. Make sure you have good clean fuel, your base timing is set right, no vacuum leaks etc. Sometimes getting the aftermarket stuff off it and back to basics helps. IE your electric fans, if they are not correct they will cause all kinds of cooling headaches and it might be smart to get a clutch fan and shroud on it instead. By correct I mean more then just wiring and making them spin. They need to be shrouded and sized correctly for your cooling system otherwise they will cause you more headaches then they are worth.
Is not that i’m concerned singularly of vacuum advance. but i am concerned about getting the timing, including total, while revving in a good place.
as well, seeing that now i have installed the brand new (not preset) single port small unit as per your ++suggestion, it will also require initial adjustment to fall where it should be. so it’s really about the big picture of ‘timing’ because as you suspected yourself, it worked its way down into hell and caused all these recent troubles. I only want everything dialed in & tuned for smooth & cool running so i can safely & reliable drive the car, and move onto other needed projects✅
I do hear you, but in real life, stuff happens. i am doing what he told me to, but yes along the way other things popped up, such as needing both fans running while i am working on timing, carb & vacuum. or i should just overheat again? and this cat is not bastardized with all such aftermarket things, AFA the electric fans, they are well sized, well powered and shrouded and were previously cooling properly with the 24" 3-core radiator. but after sunday’s coolant flood, a bad wiring job got everything got soaked out of the raised burp funnel, shorted and blew fuse. im still finding & wiping out coolant even inside my new wire looms. this stuff doesnt happen to others with old cars? of course it does, so im not jumping around chasing gremlins or squirrels, but am directly addressing whats needed along the way & so i did go out to address that (which i did last nite) now can go back to getting the rest dialed in. im not the type to pretend i know it all and thats why i reached out with this to begin with because i was concerned and stumped. but, am also not green and know much after decades with 2 dozen vehicles and only 6 of them were new. i have alot of projects & builds, motor body interior all of it, documented under my belt having been hands-on working on and with cars since 7yo by my gandpa’s side. so as it goes for us humans… when you know you know, when you don’t you don’t or when not certain, to never be afraid or too proud to ask someone, and i will never be that. and that’s what i did here with you all. and if people are sick of the thread, i’ve no problem to end this one and sort the car out solo. but thanks again to everyone involved, it is much appreciated here.
Everyone is trying to help you but so many variables are being tossed into the mix it becomes very hard to figure out what is going on. The process of troubleshooting a car you can’t see (that’s what we are trying to do) depends on an understanding of exactly what the problem is. I am not trying to beat you up, just trying to ask questions that steer us in the right direction. The greatest benefit of the forum besides solving your issue is the help it will give countless people in the future. So keeping things some what structured is important. I also realize how frustrated you can get when it all is going to hell at the same moment. So put on the thick skin for a minute.
Here is an example: Asking how to adjust the vacuum advance has an answer, asking how to adjust the idle mixture or the timing all have answers. But they do nothing to diagnose the actual problem. Where the combined knowledge of the forum excels is in diagnosis.
Here is what we know so far about the actual problem:
i noticed the temp dial nearing way up on ‘H’ and when i shut the car off i could hear the boiling under the hood and eventually once the cap released, the overflow can started spitting out coolant on the ground. when i opened the hood, the hoses were obviously under extreme bloated pressure as well.
You did the following work:
along with the restored heater box, ran my new hoses & clamps, refilled the coolant & setup my tall burp-funnel I also had installed a new 2" temp gauge in place of my broken center clock
It’s worth noting that none of this would actually impact over heating. Probably all good maintenance that needed to be done but not effective at changing cooling capacity.
Base timing can have a big effect on every aspect of how the engine runs and how hot it gets. Now we are getting some where.
so as soon as i turned it and brought the timing up, she smoothed out and was idling nicely BUT… the pressure/vacuum only moved to 30/13 never higher.
It’s easy to jump to conclusions and nothing like scalding hot water to get your attention:
I have the tools here to test leak-down and also cylinder compression (although i do not want to run this car any longer in it’s current state so i’d need do a manual compression check)
The great news is these old cars are cast iron lumps of forgiveness. With no pressure on the coolant the heat soak after shut down is going to make the coolant very hot. The chances that it damaged anything are very very slim. You are not destined to teat down anything just yet. And you REALLY need to do some diagnostics before jumping to that conclusion.
Then we get sidetracked with a discussion of nylon timing gears. Yes, that is a concern but it’s unlikely to be the cause of the immediate problem. It is possible to use a bore scope that works with your phone to peak in through the fuel pump opening and see those gears. But lets get back to the issue.
the pressure & vacuum readings are terrible now, highest achieved 30 pressure & 13 vacuum vs 50/20
We got a little lost trying to understand “pressure” But 13" of Hg vacuum is not good.
i got the timing to about 7 BTDC, but the Edelbrock idle screw wouldnt adjust any further back, and i was still around 1200 RPMs post kick-down idle speed so 10 timing would have been way higher idle. Likely need to now adjust the idle mixture screws with the vac gauge to go lower, but i couldn’t let the car run any longer w/o the fans stable.
Now you are making some progress. We need to find out why the idle speed is so high. (I am hoping that when you say idle screw you are referring to the one on the side of the carb that sets the opening of the throttle.) Since the Edelbrock is not designed for Ford accelerator linkage you see a lot of different ways it is connected. If the throttle linkage is holding the throttle open you are going to need to fix that. For the purpose of getting things dialed in it is easiest to just disconnect the throttle rod so it can’t effect the carb. It the idle speed screw is all the way out then you probably have a major vacuum leak. If you have been adjusting the idle mixture screws on the front of the carb you need to return them to the factory spec. What model carb do you have?
it seems that the distributor bolt was never fully tightened when i got the car. so at first, it was baseline and running fine, no issues.
I suspect that this, plus funky fan wiring and a throttle rod that is mis-adjusted might be your real problem
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Thank you for taking the time here to do these bullet points as well as keeping me focused on the right path and goal. Your final comment is likely the gist of it all here and moreover, indicating that your original thought of timing being way out was spot on. and soon as i had a working t-light again, along with the vacuum gauge result, that was clearly verified✅
The carb is an Edelbrock 600 w/electronic choke. yes there’s an issue with one or both, linkage and/or e-choke setting as 1) even with idle set screw backed fully out & after kickdown, idle still too high (about 1,200 with 7 BTDC). 2) i discovered the choke plate is always slightly open when cold, so i will work on the carb 1st. will do as you said to temporarily disconnect linkage while this work is being done. once i see that idle come down, i’ll reset the idle mixture screws with vacuum gauge, then bring the base timing up further hopefully to 10 and check rpms & vacuum. Also through this process, will monitor that temp gauge readout. if all continues going well with temp staying in safe range, i’ll see if i can rev up to also verify where total timing is at.
depending how my days play out here… will try and get on this asap, but at latest, this coming weekend for sure. good or bad, will post any progress or updates. Thanks again!
The dynamic nature of vacuum advance makes it almost never an issue. It is literally the very last thing you need to worry about so long as the diaphragm holds vacuum. I will be interested to see what is keeping the idle RPM so high.
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I have found that the best way to clean up the engine compartment after an antifreeze volcano, is to wash it all off with the garden hose. Harness and all. Then some compressed air and the rest will evaporate.
Has the motor been run from cold with the radiator cap off untill warm to verify water pump moving the water throught the radiator adequately? Without circulation volcanoes sometimes happen. Of course as mentioned there is timing, head gasket leak, or clogged block passage way. Then, then, cracked block/head that only leaks hot gases into the cooling system when at temperature.
Never had and Edelbrock carburetor but the Holley has a rod that needs bent in place to keep the secondarys from opening at idel. Check to see if the secondary throttle shaft can be closed any further at idel. A lean high idle creates more heat im sure everyone knows.
Vacuum leaks, another cause. Good luck to ya.
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Planning to hit the self-wash bay to do that very thing soon as she’s running well again, as i’m also in process of sand/clean/paint in sections under there, as i do, and cannot continue that with all this sticky mess everywhere.
Yes the water pump is recent under 1K miles, and (after new t-stat is open), there’s full flow seen without a radiator cap. the coolant volcano with burp funnel in place took place still prior to discovering & then correcting the extreme retarded timing, so the car actually started to boil-over again real-time in the funnel’s reservoir and once shut off it went everywhere. when things look good enough, intend on running idle out back for like 20m with new cap back on and see how temps go. as well, still may need to burp out some new air after all this took place again too.
on the carb, im disconnecting the linkage, correcting the choke adjustment so it is 98% closed for off/ overnite cold. next, although i hear it drop on warmup kickdown, i will physically check for certain that the fast-idle cam is moving out of the way and not holding the throttle beyond the normal idle set screw. thanks for your thoughts on all this here👍
High idle often indicates a vacuum leak somewhere, which might be part of why the vacuum is so low along with the timing issue. I didnt see what motor you have anywhere, but if its a sbf and the heads have been off, is it possible that the head gaskets are on wrong? they only go one way and they block off the water passage to the front of the head causing overheating? I am trying to remember, but it seems like there was some way to check without removing the head. there was a tab on the head gasket or something? I can look when I get home and see if I can figure it out. Is you r radiator good? is water moving freely through it and thee is no restriction? also how much air are your fans moving? I have seen 16 inch fans move 720 to 1800cfm, so just because they are coming on doesn’t mean they are moving enough air. Just food for thought.
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Hi Shawn, it’s a 1968 302 w/Edelbrock 600 & Weiand intake with correct flange. and yep agree on vacuum leaks always being a distinct possibility with a high idle situation. but as soon as we corrected timing back in range, the vacuum shot from 5-6 way back up to so far 18 and its stable as well, so rn i’m thinking carb related on the ↑ idle rpms. in addition, prior to the seriously retarded-timing issues, the car ran and idled perfectly.
On the head gaskets, yep true they need be oriented a certain way & I believe they use an F or FRONT mark for the installer. but for reference all the major braking, suspension and engine work, including the new radiator, fans, valve job, head gaskets, intake & carb and much more, was completed over a year back and the car was driven over 1,000 miles after w/o issues by PO and later, myself. is yet to be 100% verified as we move along, but 99% that timing was the #1 culprit. With the great help & input here from Bill & all you guys that’ve been checking in, either way now… all should be much clearer by this weekend.
Some actual +progress…
Hey everyone, I was able to go out to the garage for a bit today so continued where i left off.
Last time I got the base timing up @ 7 but, even after kickdown the RPMs would not go below 1100-1200 @ that 7 and the idle set screw was already backed all the way out, so no more room there. I checked everywhere and no sign of any leak. Then disconnected the throttle linkage but it made no difference. Next I readjusted the 2 idle mixture screws with the vacuum gauge, no blockage there because they both did cause the car to almost die out as they should and when finished setting them the car was idling even smoother but idle speed still 11-1200. I mentioned last night i would, so I checked the fast-idle cam and that seems to be what caused the ↑ idle RPMs. I lubed it & moved it around for a bit (didnt adjust the screw) and when i restarted the car and hit throttle on/off, it moved where it should be after warmup and now the car was near dying out barely running, so by turning in the idle speed set screw it came right up into range 750-850 and with timing still not retarded to lower the RPM. So that’s one thing off the plate.
Now on the base timing, you’ll see in the pic & video i reached a physical limit for turning the distributor clockwise for now, as the hard fuel line stopped it out @ 7BTDC. So 1st I’d like to ask you guys (and please remember this is my 1st FoMoCo car ever & certainly 1st '68 Cougar 
) this car was originally F code 302 2V so the hard fuel line is original to that config, does your fuel line come in under advance-canister (as shown on mine) or is it routed above? I’ve no idea if these guys bent it or whatever. I saw some 4V’s but it was a diff hard line and way out of the way over rt side of the motor, no issue with timing adjustment. Common sense tells me it shouldn’t be where it is rn but i left it so far as i received the car.
I plan to address it next time around and can either just cut it back by the A/C stuff as i have a bunch of very high quality and +safe GATES Barricade fuel injection hose & clamps from another car that i restored. Or last option, i’d have to pull the distributor and do TDC and drop it in a different position. I’ll see but i think if i can route it above out of the way, i’ll have enough room to reach 10 on timing without TDC & re-orienting the dist. so i will likely try that 1st.
Am admittedly kind of paranoid now after the 3x boiling & overheating, but I have to remind myself it appears that all happened because the timing was severely retarded, then causing the issues. I want to run it this weekend for like 25-30min before any real test driving and make sure it’s smooth & cooling properly 1st in the garage. so first time for this cat in couple decades… this time i also turned on the heat too while the system is already pushing thru all the new components i just completed (eliminated heat & A/C bypass from ages ago) installed new: heater core, water valve, heater hoses, vacuum lines & thermostat (with 1/8 hole @ 12oclock) the temps only got up to low 190s before i shut it off, but i noticed alot of smoke coming around the radiator, wasn’t electrical i’m thinking its still residual coolant from the flood over and needs burn off or once i hit the wash bay, itll all be clean again. so i just wanna keep my eye on the temps and that smoke too with each time running.
Before driving, should probably run it with radiator cap off once again this weekend & burp funnel in place after all this happened with boiling over volcano coolant loss and more refilling as to make certain any new trapped air is out of there. when it shut down and was @ 190° i heard some gurgling & with the stethoscope, seemed to be coming from my overflow bottle.
Attaching some pics so you all can see the fuel line / canister location, RPM & vacuum updates.
the motor is really getting smoother/better each time out there and further improved even higher steady vacuum plus now proper range achieved for RPMs. (are we not allowed to use videos here?)
Everyone’s help & input is paying off. Not out of the woods just yet, but feeling good about the +progress. If anyone has thoughts or input, please do because i’ll be working on the car most of this weekend, and hopefully go for a test drive too. Thanks again👊
they bent the fuel line to reach the inlet location on the Edelbrock. Bend it so it no longer interferes with the movement of the distributor.
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OK sounds good, will do that or if line gets compromised from all the bending, I’ll cut it off further back and use my Gates Barricade fuel-injection hose run up to the new metal filter & fuel inlet✅
Nice progress! What are you wanting to accomplish by running it with radiator cap off? You need the 13 psi pressure that the radiator cap maintains to raise the boiling point of the coolant. Without that, it will boil coolant out at normal operating temp.
Just make sure you have coolant in the recovery tank, and it will draw that in to replace any air bubbles as it cools off. And watch the temp gauge for signs of overheating.
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Hey there, yeah thanks it was a +good day. On the cooling system, with all the fluid loss & refills, wanted to run it just for literally a few minutes again with my tall burp funnel installed in the cap opening to pull any new air out, they really work great and have been indispensable on many of my cars, especially the C4 Vette which has issues with trapped air, but then, that radiator rides almost touching the ground way down there😄
As far as the coolant recovery goes, they installed an aluminum cylinder bottle which has a sealed top, no regular access. you have to unscrew 3 small screws and break the seal loose to pry the lid off & then reseal anytime you want to look. so big pita & to me a stupid design. Later after this stuff is resolved, I plan to get a generic standard type molded tank and will hide it up under the right fender if i can. if not, i’ll find similar bottle but with a normal screw-cap, but i’d like a higher capacity tank if i can.
On the radiator cap, do you suggest a 13 or 15 for my car setup, as I have both to choose from here, and both are brand new.
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To fix your distributor hitting the fuel line issue: Remove the distributor and drop it back in one wire’s worth of rotation CCW. Then remove one spark plug wire at a time, moving it one position CW. That will put things in approximately the same position for firing sequence, but you’ll need to fine tune your advance. You should now be able to adjust your distributor more than previously.
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Sounds like a good plan. 13 psi is correct for your car. Good luck!
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Ah yes, another good old-school method that works, but didn’t cross my mind yesterday. Actually in you bringing this up, it made me think even if just temporary to get the car back on the road for testing, all i need do for now is to leave the distributor where it’s at, then move all the wires over 1 position CW. at that point, verify and timing should be right about where I want it. this should do it for now correct? and thanks for checking in here👍