I’ve also developed products that were built in both countries, and agree you can get high quality stuff out of China. The Desert Classics dash panels you developed and most of our electronics are great examples that not everything out of China is junk.
But I would add that because of factors such as their lack of regulation, low material and labor costs, and a desire to gain market share and grow their economy, they are willing to source junk for a low cost. And there are lots of companies that are more than happy to sacrifice quality in order to improve margins by sourcing that low cost junk. This is the stuff that gives China products a bad reputation, and there is lots of it.
My experience was that it takes extra effort to get high quality stuff from China. In fact, we moved production back to the US on several more complex products because the lower costs were being erased by higher support costs. But there is lots of stuff like the plating on Bill’s dash panels, that just can’t be done for a reasonable cost in the US anymore. So we can be thankful for companies like Bill’s that are willing to put in the extra effort to get us the good stuff out of China!
I used to own a factory here in the USA and there is nothing that could make my life easier than being able to source things in the USA. If price is the only objective you better be ready see Vietnam on more boxes. They are now the low cost provider of crap.
Not sure if this has been asked but in newer cars you have a up stream O2 (before cat) and down stream O2 (after cat). Do the snipper let you set it up to work like that? I do know if the O2’s are not correct they will kill a cat.
Don’t you just need to put an oxygen sensor in the exhaust pipe, catalytic convertor or not? I thought aftermarket EFI systems for non-cat cars didn’t need a cat.
I applaud your idea to clean up the exhaust smell and emissions with aftermarket catalytic converters, but it’s just not that simple (I wish it was, I’d run them too). If your EFI system is not rigorously tuned with the intention of keeping the cats alive, they’re going to get fouled and ultimately burn up. You’ll end up having to replace them fairly regularly if you put any mileage on the car. Catalytic converters are not a set and forget thing like a muffler, to work correctly they have to be kept within a certain temperature window. Also running too rich a mixture will burn them out quickly.
The catalytic converters are the idea of the shop that’s installing the headers, exhaust and EFI. It’s something he’s learned that works well. I’m going along with his recommendations. I’ve sort of enjoyed how much discussion the cats have stirred up!
I’d sooner cut the column and install electric power assist and use the manual steering linkage and get rid of the pump and hoses That all said the stock setup can work really well for what it is if you know what to do. keep in mind the Corvette up to 1981 used the same power assist setup. Getting the box properly rebuilt and adjust is step one. Step two is making sure the PS control valve is properly rebuilt and adjusted. Step three is running a hard bushing on the ram for better response. After all that one of the most important things is to get a proper alignment. You need at least minimum 2 deg positive caster for the car in to not wonder at speed. The other two things that are important to do is use a rollerized spring perch and do the shelby 1” drop to fix the camber curve.
In order for the cats to work they need to get hot enough to “lit off”. The closer to the manifolds the better. They also need the air/fuel ratio to be lean or near stochiometric (14.7:1). Having the EFI properly set up can help a lot with that. The other thing to consider is those cats will add a lot if under hood and floorboard heat if not insulated well. Honestly a properly tuned EFI or carb and a good ignition will go a long way towards achieving what you want.
I described to the shop what I was looking for (as I did in this post), and the shop recommended the cats to make it quieter, and to also cut down on fumes. Are you still confused?
I mentioned to the shop owner that the Classic Cougar Community was critiquing the plan. His response:
I ignore forum keyboard warriors. we are professionals and work from experience. This is not my first rodeo… more like my 4,000th. It’s similar to a self diagnosis from the internet walking into a doctors office.
For what it’s worth, I went Borgeson & kept the original pump. An email exchange with Borgeson lead me in that direction. Happy with results. My experience with Borgeson installs is 3,999 less than the shop you are going to though.
I agree one has to evaluate answers from questions posted on these forums, but it appears these “keyboard warriors” have been fairly consistent in their recommendations…especially in not using cats for their questionable gain in this configuration. However, fuel injection should make a positive impact in addressing that “smelly exhaust” due to their ability to meter fuel via use of the O2 sensors…thus cats aren’t needed. Another option is to leave off for now, and add later once all of the other work is done…provides a way to see if issue is addressed.
It’s your money, so good luck in your choice. I’m sure your shop is happy to take your money.
This is exactly what my response is too when a customer walks in with a recommendation of what the internet says to do with their vehicle because who knows where that info came from or if those people even have the background to stand on their advise, most conversations are an echo of what those people have read themselves but never experienced personally. Most of the time the shop will take offense to being offered internet advise rather then trusting their judgement however not all shops have your best interest in mind so its good to seek other advise and knowledge rather then trusting 100% what they tell you.
I think most of the comments here are simply meant for you to consider other pathways then what one shop may have told you, get you to think and do some research, ask some questions etc. The better educated you are the better.
I’m not saying this shop is wrong of their recommendation but its a different take on the subject and opposite of what is normally done so I’m curious to their reasoning and how they accomplish it for better and not worse. I do not personally agree with it based on my knowledge and experience. For what its worth, automotive is my background professionally and Im not just a keyboard warrior, I’ve done this work. If you chose this route definitely post up the results as Im sure Im not the only one wondering.
I would have some questions for them if it was my car such as…..Do they write specific efi tuning for converter operations? do they run an O2 sensor on each bank? downstream O2 sensor for monitoring of converter function? Do you run a high zinc oil and if so how will that affect converter life? What is the life expectancy of these converters? Can I get replacements easily? Do they increase the in cabin temperatures and if so how do you counter that? For the customers that you have installed these on how much do they actually drive their car? etc
I find myself in the position of supporting the shop. My side line is restoring fuel sending units. On average I do about 600 a year. I guarantee that I know more about that circuit than just about any one else. However I will post something on Facebook to help someone and it gets countered by people who try to apply what they learned fixing their toilet to fuel senders. Oh well. I know where he is coming from.
What I would suggest is that while he has probably worked on many cars that the collective Cougar specific knowledge here is vastly superior to anything he will find else where. You an be the smartest guy in the room, but all of us together are smarter than any of us.
Given that, he has his own secret recipe and he is the one that needs to stand behind it. I believe he might learn a few things reading through the posts but that takes time they probably won’t be willing to spend. And we can learn something from your project. Please keep us advised how it goes.
I’m no shop syncophant. I started out my posting here with bitter complaints of the shop that held by Cougar hostage for four years. They didn’t know anything; I’d be telling them how to do thing from what I learned here. For example, I figured out the steering box hadn’t been rebuilt, and sourced Chocko Stang.
For the work that’s the subject of this thread I first got an estimate from a shop that specializes in heavily modified Mustangs. But I was impressed with neither the depth of their knowledge nor detail on the estimate.
So far I really like this shop. They’re very knowledgeable, wrote up a detailed estimate in a flash, have a slew of classic cars about, and respond to communication.
I’m really curious now how it will turn out, especially with the controversial cats. I’ll let everyone know if the heat scorches through the floor plan, it reeks of sulphur, doesn’t quiet at all, messes up the FI exhaust sensor, etc. They’re only $85 a piece, and they’re not itemized as additional labor (it’s 8 hours for the entire headers and exhaust).
I’m very curious about how the catalytic converters will work out and install details such as where they place them in the exhaust system, etc. If you don’t mind sharing some pics of the finished install here I’d love to see them.
For sure this will be my last reply to anything you post. Years ago I worked at an automotive machine shop that did a lot of race engines and the “my buddy said” stuff was all the time. Being in that business is hard and was easy spending too much time explaining and education the customer. That all said your shop are a bunch of arrogant assholes. “We are professionals”. I can say they better for what they charge. There is a way to tell a customer your experience and ability without belittling and putting others down. I know as I’ve done it many times.
The reason I’m done is that you are the one that came on here asking all kinds of questions. You found a shop and they told you what they will do and gave you a price. Go have them do it and stop wasting everyone’s time. I’m not one of these know nothing “internet” people and some others who took the time are not either. You ask for opinions you will get just that. Are a lot of different views on stuff. For me no more free advice. My time and knowledge are worth a good bit. Go spend caviar prices on your hi dollar shop and be happy. Stop wasting everyone’s time.
