What I am saying is I understand both sides of it. I understand being a shop in this type of business you can waste a lot of time explaining to a customer or potential customer why you recommend something or do things how you do. That said it is a poor to put people down in such a blanket statement. If you are a professional shop you don’t do that. My read is the shop ran out of patients dealing with his questions and is showing its lack professionalism.
It is real simple how you should deal with this “This is what we recommend and have had good experience with it”. Maybe give them some references to other customers especially if what you are recommending you did for them. If they have done 4,000 which I question they should have plenty of examples
Some shops just tell the customer we will do what you want, but if we don’t recommend it we won’t warranty it. The other point how it is now a days a lot of shops have an online presence. YouTube is full of them and that includes some really high end shops.
That all said my real issue is with the OP. Regardless of what the shop may have said to him he should not have come on here and repeated it in that way. Whether he realizes it or not it is disrespectful. Everyone’s experience is different and many on here have experience and knowledge that came at a price. Most on here share because they have a love of the hobby and know what it is like when you are trying to find a part or have a problem with your project.
Finally to answer your question directly
“So you didn’t like the “my buddy said XYZ” when you worked at a shop, correct?”
No I really did not care. Sometimes I’d find it funny or a shame how misguided it may have been, but you keep that to yourself. Sometime actually made life easy if they said same as you recommended, but that was not often LOL.
If anything if the person seemed open to learn if we could afford the time we would try to explain what the potential issues were. Most common was wanting to use a cam with too much duration or too high a compression for a street engine. In the end it is a business. You need to make money to keep the lights on, You want happy customers and also don’t want to do things that will result in someone bad mouthing you because you gave them what they wanted and they were not happy with the results. Really the hard core racers were usually easier to work with. Hope this helps
Geez. I’ve been on a lot of different forums, I’ve always figured they’re purpose is for sharing useful information in a hobby.
I’m having work done on my Cougar, and I’m providing details on how it is going, including estimates. I thought that might be useful for others considering improvements. The thread has gotten a lot of replies, on most forums that’d be considered a good thing.
I don’t have nearly the technical knowledge of those who’ve replied on the thread. if there’s a difference between the shop and Cougar Community posters, I’m not going to cite the forum to the shop, because it’s the shop doing it their way thats providing a warranty. So, it’s true that I’m not really able to apply some of the knowledgeable advice on this forum, but I figured that’ll be there for others planning a build.
Sorry I posted what the shop said about outside advice, that was meant for me and not to be posted here. But that highlighted what’s always a tension between professional expertise and what the customer thinks, or may have heard. Apparently it’s a sensitive subject.
So, my apologies for the Cougar Community Forum for making the work on my Cougar a topic, and discussing it in detail. I guess the forum is for some other purpose.
I also didn’t expect so many to get in their feelings about this. I liked the conversation about making real improvements to way the car drives and operates. Build the thing and report back. I’m most interested in the cats as anything to keep fumes to a minimum is interesting to me as I drive my car often.
Vintage Mustang Forum is quite similar, you’re going to get 10 people who “know more than you” telling you not to do whatever you’re doing before you get many helpful answers.
The best way to understand THIS forum is that we are all hanging out in the garage drinking beer and telling stories until some one shows up with a real problem. Then we have something to do.
You might have noticed this is the COMMUNITY here. There are an amazing number of people that have been here for the entire 15 years the forum has existed. We more or less know each other. So over time you get to find out who actually has subject knowledge and you learn a bit about each others personality. We used to have an annual live and in person party during the Barrett Jackson Scottsdale auction and that was fantastic. Not to pick on Royce but once you start to hear his replies here, in his voice, they have a completely different feel. And he has probably owned more Cougars than he would like his wife to count. I miss those parties but my new location is just not conducive to holding them anymore. Anyway you all may have noticed that there is no advertising here. So this forum is not about eyeballs or clicks or anything but a place to share the experience and love for the cars.
When new people come here there is a bit of socialization that occurs. You figure out who everybody is and get a feel for the vibe. This has become more challenging since Face Book. FB is mostly well meaning people who wish to make a contribution the the conversation. Most of what they suggest is probably wrong, but it doesn’t matter because it all disappears overnight. And then there are those who do nothing but try to pick a fight. Most of the people who actually have correct information have long since fled because they are tired of trying to rise above the bad recommendations and fighting with the trolls. Given all of that, it makes it hard for new members here to learn the ropes. I can feel the effects of AI making things even worse. Just remember the members here have ACTUAL intelligence earned over decades of experience, not what you might find on redit.
I am going to take a left turn here but I will come back I swear it. I did an AI search for Legendary Cougar Magazine Unicorn. (The Unicorn is a non GT-E equipped with a 427 and AC from the factory that is fully documented.) The return was that there was no Legendary Cougar Magazine, that the Legendary Cougar was part of a video game and there were no Unicorns in the game. Wow! I guess we just hallucinated those 16 magazine issues.
So when the new member comes along and treats this like FB they get push back. Some times they run away but sometimes they get up to speed pretty quickly. Eventually you will learn that Royce frowns on people doing anything that is potentially unsafe like amateur brake work. Diesel D actually knows how engineer restomods correctly so they work. (Ask him about his cooling fan controllers). Cougar Bill knows how to make Cougars go around corners and has more real world experience building cars that get driven. CougarsUnlimited.Net knows more about Cougar turn signals than anyone. Coach Jack is your electrical troubleshooter. Midlife knows what ever wire does in every harness. The registrars are here. I am leaving out way too many other experts but actual correct answers are here. How one uses that is up to you.
I believe the overall issue is in asking for input (i.e. “so if anybody has any better ideas, there’s time to make changes”), but then dismissed that input as it rolled in. Obviously, you’re going to receive feedback from those that have decades of experience and mixed experience from others that has to be evaluated.
In the end, it appears you would have been better off just stating you’re not really interested in input from others, moving forward in what you and your shop want to do, and then providing feedback to the community as to how well that experiment actually worked.
It’s a discussion forum about a favorite topic of ours. You came looking for input/advice/opinions and you got replies. What you do with your car is your choice just like what you do with the information. No harm no foul and I wish you well in whatever path you choose. I’d love to hear your experiences moving forward with the modifications-good or bad.
I think your sharing that rather arrogant quote from your shop came across like you were in agreement and thus dismissing alot of well informed and experienced advice here on the forum. I heard the exact same thing from my engine rebuilder, and it turned out he was right on some stuff, but wrong on others. Just like here on the forum, you have to sort through all of the differing opinions to find your own way.
This isn’t any of our first rodeos either, and I imagine the combined experience here might even exceed his claimed 4000th rodeo. But I hope the shop lives up to their bluster, and I’m with wawazat in wanting to hear what you ended up doing and how it all worked out. Good luck!
This thread started November 14th. It took it to the shop December 20th. There certainly was time to make changes. You’ll see that on the original post It was going to have Doug’s Headers, but others on this thread had better ideas, and now it is Sanderson Shorties. Thanks Cougar Community forum.
The request for input was sincere. What I liked I implemented. I certainly never thought I was “dismissing” input. I generally gave my reasons for what I was choosing to do on my own Cougar. That included heeding the recommendation of the experienced shop owner who as I was moving along I really got to respect and like. He’s been great to work with so far.
I never expected that those opining on the build would be in a pique if I didn’t pay to implement their suggestions on my Cougar.
Again sorry for posting his private response to me. I figured incorrectly that the experienced posters on this forum would see that it was a private communication to a customer, and not directed at any forum posters. I think that’d be a very common response from shop owners communicated to the customers, But maybe I’m wrong, there, I dunno.
So I’m going to keep on posting and reporting how it turns out. I think the thread will be useful for Cougar owners considering upgrades.
I will give you credit for apologizing about that “private’ post from your shop. That said it was a slap in the face to everyone here. As I’ve posted I full well know the other side and shops running out of patients with customer questions. Been there, have the shirt to prove it. He may be great, but is arrogant. You don’t have to put others down to make your point. Really if he is all that then he doesn’t need your business and should have said if you bring it here this is what we will do and have a nice day.
For the few that are interested in those cats here is my experience. First have to ask what makes catalytic converters expense. It is the rare metals in them. Those metals act as a catalyst to allow the chemical reaction to happen to convert the unburned hydrocarbons. The less there is of these metals the less effective the cat is. This is why cats for CA emissions are usually more expensive than ones for 49 states, it is a stricter standard they have to meet.
I just happen to know something about that cat you posted up costing $92. Used similar to them years ago to help try to get a street/strip car thru emissions and we are talking mid 80’s emission requirements. Did not always work. They have to be close enough to the engine to get up to temperature. Putting them right off a collector sometimes hurts ET. Exhaust gases expand with heat. They will make a minor difference in both noise and emissions. That was my experience with them. A good cat will cost you $400. or more.
Good lord, let it go man. It’s not a slap in the face to anyone, stop getting your feelings hurt over someone being confident in their own work.
Every internet forum is full of keyboard warriors spouting nonsense, It’s not up to a shop to filter through every person and decipher what information is good or bad and what the knowledge base behind each post is.
Well we will just disagree here. You’re fine being called a key board warrior good for you. I don’t.
Shop doesn’t want to be questioned on what they do. Shop is in business to make money. That comment while many times true is not the professional way out. The op coming on this forum and posting it serves no positive purpose.
I’ll stop posting now as none of this makes me any money and is a waste of my time. I can be like a shop too. Later
This man knows what he is talking about. This is true and can also confirm his experiences with my own. This is why so many here are questioning the installation of these on your car and suggesting it will cause more harm then good. Talk to your shop about these details, they should be able to elaborate on the subject to justify their recommendation for your particular build. Give you the pros and cons so you can make an informed choice. There is always a pro and a con when modifying a vehicle
Look this is what this forum is about, a place to share different ideas, knowledge and experience’s. You may not agree with everyone here and that’s ok but I encourage you to take other opinions into account too. Just like the cats, you have heard the opinions here from those who have subject knowledge and you have heard from your chosen shop. Now its up to you to make the decision. Alot of guys here have been screwed over by places that claim to know what they are doing, this happens alot and its worse in the classic car space so I think everyone is just looking out for your best interest. I do hope you post your results positive or negative so its here for the future. I dont think you would have the same feedback experience on a platform like facebook where you actually get a bunch of keyboard warriors. Im happy we still have a forum in a world so driven by instant social media platforms.
I like to share different things I do on my car especially if they are different then the norm. Ive got a little bit of hate mail before over it too but you cant let that get to you, I appreciate the feedback good and bad.
With the controversial cats, they’re not attempting to make CA emissions, they’re first and foremost a quieting option akin to a resonator, but with the bonus of reducing smell. There’s nothing anyone’s posted here that’s dissuaded me they’re worth trying, especially as they’re not that expensive, the shop has extensive experience and is providing a warranty.
Is that okay with everyone? I’m excited to try something new, take one for the team as it were, and report what happens to the forum.
I’ll say one thing about the shop owner, he’s a pleasure to talk to, he’s real relaxed and doesn’t get bent out of shape over trifles.
Good question! I need a new exhaust, what I have now is leaking. As long as I’m at it, I want to optimize for the best outcome. My plate boasts “351 CLE”, I’m looking for some performance to back it up.
I asked ChatGPT what would be the benefit of Sanderson Shorty headers:
Real-World Expected Outcome on Your Cougar
Assuming you run:
Stock cam / mild performance cam
2.5″ or 2.25″ exhaust
High-flow cats + decent mufflers
You should feel: Better throttle response Stronger torque off idle and in cruise Smoother power delivery More efficient idle/exhaust note (not obnoxious)
I may as well chime in here. While I would not put Cats on my older cars, it is yours. Do what you like. I am interested in the final results. If I may, can you get an exhaust test dome before and after? That data might convince some sceptics of its effectiveness on that front as well as sound readings.
Good luck and I look forward to your after work done report.
It’d be nice to document all this, in the spirit of inquiry.
It’s in the shop now getting this work done, the earliest I’d get it back would be January 16th, but I’m not too optimistic about that.
I doubt a performance restoration shop will have exhaust test equipment. And besides, it’s having the Holley Sniper 2 FI, so that would also affect exhaust I think. A bonus is that the Holley will have sensors and a lot more electronics, so we might find out something. The O2 sensors are placed upstream, however, of the cats. When it’s all done I guess I can get an exhaust reading, to see how much better it is than what would be expected.
Since the exhaust is leaking now, and will have the aforementioned EFI, headers, new mufflers, etc. the effect of the cats on the exhaust sound won’t be isolated. I’ll be sure to post a video, however!
Real-World Expected Outcome on Your Cougar
Better throttle response